Hufnagel Examples Needed

[kyrieb-ekat]

Let's provide links in this thread to provide a proto-ground truth for Zih Syuan what Hufnagel looks like. Since this is for developing a font for Neon, we're needing to think "classic" or idiomatic look of later Hufnagel script. The skinnier/more cursive versions are not what we need right now, though perhaps in the future that will change (example).

An example of what I mean by classic/idiomatic is this fellow (e-codices link). Examples can come from Cantus Database or general perusal; this source is in codices listed as having "german plainsong notation".

[JoyfulGen]

I submit these for approval:

CDN-Mrb MS Medieval 0025: https://fragmentarium.ms/view/page/F-mtrk/10143/74902

NZ-Wt MSR-03: https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE2339587&dps_custom_att_1=emu

Cantus MA Impr. 1537: https://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0009/bsb00090351/images/index.html?seite=8&fip=193.174.98.30

The above three I found using my CantusDB spreadsheet. I also found this printed example while wandering the internets: https://www.cepuckett.com/inventory/index.php?no_cache=20260406152205&main_page=product_info&products_id=3061

[annamorphism]

https://public-content.library.mcgill.ca/digitization/rbsc_ms-medieval-234.pdf McGill's big Hufnagel manuscript could be good too...or https://diglib.hab.de/mss/29-helmst/start.htm. There's something kind of fun about saying we developed the font based on a manuscript at McGill...

Here's another print fragment, too: https://fragmentarium.ms/view/page/F-2ryf/5114/48789 . (The little lines of division aren't necessary for us right now). I wouldn't say the print pages are quite as typical, but the nice thing about the print examples is that their publishers were often trying to minimize the total number of required shapes to cast out of metal, which is similar to our situation (we'd prefer not to have too many shape-buttons).

[annamorphism]

@JoyfulGen pretty spreadsheet request: can you create some crops of each neume to get a representative glyph for each type?

[JoyfulGen]

@annamorphism is this what you had in mind? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11Hfw4gD4au10WkWjswVRbE1t02NCWA3mBemxQ8zm7s0/edit?usp=sharing

Let me know if you'd like more neumes! If there are any manuscripts in there that you particularly like, I can add the full neume complement for those.

[annamorphism]

@annamorphism is this what you had in mind? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11Hfw4gD4au10WkWjswVRbE1t02NCWA3mBemxQ8zm7s0/edit?usp=sharing

Let me know if you'd like more neumes! If there are any manuscripts in there that you particularly like, I can add the full neume complement for those.

this is great! (i hadn't really noticed that one sample uses some sort of quarter rest for the f clef; how fun!). It pleases me that Cantus MA Impr. 1537 and St Gall 438 basically agree on the shapes, which makes me think those are the ones we should pursue in more depth. (None of them look like they will break into little constituent Neon-friendly neume components more easily than any other...)

[JoyfulGen]

Ok, I've added some neumes to the St Gall 438 and Cantus MA lines! I have some follow-up questions:

@zih-syuan, in the case of neumes that can have different intervals, can you infer bigger intervals from one example, or is it best to have a separate example of each interval? For example, the podatus (one note, and then another note higher than the first) can cover an interval of a second (podatus2), like this:

Or an interval of a third (podatus3), like this:

Hypothetically, a podatus could also cover an interval of a fourth, or even a fifth. Is it possible for you to "stretch" the podatus3 to cover bigger intervals, or is it best if I find examples of a podatus4 and a podatus5?

@annamorphism, @kyrieb-ekat, @zih-syuan, how do you feel about compound neumes that can be assembled from components we already have? I have several examples to submit:

The climacus - could be a virga and some puncta;

The podatus subpunctis - could be a podatus and some puncta;

The scandicus - could be some puncta and a virga;

The torculus resupinus - could a torculus and a virga.

This is already the way that Neon builds most compound neumes in square notation (a podatus is two puncta, a clivis is a reversed virga and a punctum, etc.), so I think it could be great for hufnagel too. Especially since hufnagel already has a lot more symbols, what with the podatus and clivis being distinct shapes, building the bigger neumes from smaller components would avoid having a symbol library that's 2 pages long!

And finally, @annamorphism, what is this? Is it a liquescent? If so, does it go up or down?

And what is this? Is it a torculus with a liquescent attached to it?

[kyrieb-ekat]

1. Gen this is amazing, very beautiful, great work
2. re: compound neumes; I vote yes? They're part and parcel of the neume lexicon, so I feel like it'd be weirder not to have a climacis, porrectus, or scandicus and so on.

And what is this? Is it a torculus with a liquescent attached to it?

kinda winder is this fellow is just a torculus with a rising plica, or just a swanky lift? torculus epiphonus? does tha exist? 🤔

I know this one!! maybe!! A pes epiphonus? 👀

@annamorphism , thoughts?

[annamorphism]

1. Gen this is amazing, very beautiful, great work

   2. re: compound neumes; I vote yes? They're part and parcel of the neume lexicon, so I feel like it'd be weirder not to have a climacis, porrectus, or scandicus and so on.

I mean, kinda, but in the square note MSS we mostly ignored the neume shape labels in Neon and just thought of them as being composed of neume components (square, diamond, oblique, with or without stem)...But maybe going forward it would be useful to make more use of this vocabulary?
Also, as long as we're chopping things up, the torculus is basically a clivis with a punctum on the front.

And what is this? Is it a torculus with a liquescent attached to it?

kinda winder is this fellow is just a torculus with a rising plica, or just a swanky lift? torculus epiphonus? does tha exist? 🤔

does it need a name? torculus praepunctus liquescens?

I'd call this a liquescent going up (epiphonus)